In this insightful episode of Custom Apparel Startups, we welcome Howard Potter back to discuss the nuances between Direct to Film (DTF) printing and traditional Screen Printing. With his deep-rooted knowledge from A&P Master Images, Howard breaks down the pros and cons of each technology, helping entrepreneurs make informed decisions tailored to their business needs.
The conversation begins with an overview of each printing method’s technical demands and operational scopes. Howard elaborates on the initial investment costs, ease of operation, and scalability potential of DTF and Screen Printing, giving listeners a comprehensive comparison.
Highlighting key factors like print quality, production speed, and cost-effectiveness, Howard shares his firsthand experiences with both methods. He discusses how DTF offers flexibility and precision with lower setup times, making it ideal for small to medium runs.
Conversely, Screen Printing is celebrated for its economic benefits in large batch productions and its lasting print quality.
Further, Howard addresses common misconceptions and challenges associated with each method, such as the steep learning curve of Screen Printing and the upfront costs associated with transitioning to or starting with DTF.
Listeners will come away with a clear understanding of which printing method might best suit their current operations and future growth plans, armed with Howard Potter’s practical advice and industry insights. Whether you’re a startup in the apparel industry or looking to expand your existing setup, this episode serves as an essential guide to mastering these popular printing techniques.
Transcript
Marc Vila:
Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Custom Apparel Startups Podcast. My name is Marc Vila. And today, we’ve got on Howard Potter with A&P Master Images, on again. Hopefully, you’ve listened to other episodes where we featured Howard here and his expertise on the business. So, thanks again for coming.
Howard Potter:
Thanks for having me.
Marc Vila:
Yeah, great. And I’ve really enjoyed our last couple conversations. The folks who initially listened to it in the beginning on our teams just really said, “Oh, wow. That was really good information. That’s actually going to be really helpful to people.” So, I’m hoping everybody out there listening gets the same thing out of this episode. And today, we really want to talk about a topic that comes up a lot in our forums, on our phone calls, social media, everywhere. It’s kind of the analog printing is what I would say. Technically, I call it analog printing versus digital printing. In other words, screen printing versus direct-to-film printing, or DTG printing versus vinyl cutting.
And these processes that are digital printing processes, where we’re printing pixels with either toner or droplets of ink, versus processes where we’re manually laying down or producing colors, like screen printing and vinyl. So, Howard, you have a ton of experience in both of these processes. So, maybe we just start off with what processes did you get started with? Why did you choose that? And then how did you evolve into doing some of the other ones? And a good description of that.
Howard Potter:
So, about 21 years ago when my wife and I started from our home, we only had a 14 foot by 14 foot room. How most businesses start, either a room in your home or a garage. And I had a graphic design background. So, basically, I had reached search sublimation when it wasn’t even really brought to the forefront yet. It was still in its infant stages. People didn’t really know what it was. No different than direct-to-film now. I think we’re in our second generation or whatever of it. So, sublimation was something that I brought on because it was roughly about $5,000 to invest in a decent setup. You could spend less, but $5,000 was a key point to really be above a hobbyist, and it didn’t take up much space and it didn’t pull a lot of power, it didn’t require any ventilation or anything like that. So, it was something that was safe to have, especially when I had kids at home.
And so, we started off with that and it literally led to the next thing we got into, which isn’t on this topic, but embroidery, because again, it was another item. It didn’t take up a lot of space. It started off with a single head embroidery machine. As our company grew and we moved the business out of our home, we then expanded into screen printing. Our first screen print space took up roughly about, I’d say 500 to 600 square feet. And you can get away with less, but comfortably being able to move, have your supplies, a manual press, a small dryer with a 24-inch belt on it widthwise by eight foot long and space to clean and pressure, wash your screens, burn your screens, emulsify them.
And then, from there, I mean we were pretty heavy into screen printing for a while because the direct-to-garment printing was being announced over that time period. And we’re talking probably 12 years ago, 13 years ago. And when I researched the direct-to-garment printing, it didn’t have the output that I was looking for at the time, and it was very costly to get into a printer. And you still needed parts of either heat pressing or running them through a dryer to cure the ink. So, that’s probably one of the few processes we skipped over, and we allowed our sublimation and our screen printing to catch both sides at the time.
Now, fast forward, 2024, I should say, actually I think it was the end of 2022 when we had just started researching the direct-to-film printer that you guys actually make, which is your DTF-24H4. We researched that because when I got the email on what it was, I was like, “I think this just solved all my issues between screen… If not all, but the majority, 95%, 98% of my issues with screen printing and sublimation to where I don’t need to buy all those extra supplies, I don’t need all those extra man hours for cleaning screens, emulsifying screens, registering them, cleaning up after everything.”
And the more I researched in the direct-to-film, I realized no matter what size unit you buy, even if you buy the largest unit, it’s still very compact, clean, organized, takes up less space, doesn’t pull nearly as much power, it takes less setup time, your in production more than you are prep time. It’s easier for the designers to design for, it gives your customer more capabilities than they ever had before because they were stuck by, is it a white item with full color? Or is it spot color or a simulated process with screen printing or half-tones with screen printing just with spot color half-tones and what’s that going to cost me? Whereas direct-to-film actually simplifies everything. It’s even easier to sell because it goes on so many different products. Customer service doesn’t have to worry about a setup charge, breaking down the callers, any of that. They just sell it for what it is.
Marc Vila:
Okay. Okay, that was great. That was a loaded answer.
Howard Potter:
Sorry.
Marc Vila:
No, I loved that. And so, I say this a lot in podcast episodes for folks who listen, but I often will take notes while somebody is talking, not exactly, but there’s key things you say that I want to make sure we respond to and address that I predict some people will either need further explanation on or we want to deep dive deeper into. So, your answer was ideal and it let me put in a handful of notes here. So, I’m going to respond to a couple of those things just in summary. So, I like in the beginning you had said, so you started with sublimation and then embroidery. They could have gone the opposite way. You could have started with embroidery and gone sublimation or at the same time even.
And the key thing with that was is that it’s a small space, those technologies are small space and they don’t require really special power or special ventilation. Nowadays, both of those technologies, the price has come down significantly from when you started. You can get a pretty nice sublimation set up for 1,000 bucks-ish, like Sawgrass, brand name printer. And it’s not super high-speed or anything, but you can make a business out of that. And then, embroidery too. Back 20 years ago, an embroidery machine would easily be $15,000, $20,000 for a full setup, and now you can get them for $10,000. You can get quality equipment for $10,000-ish.
And I’d like to describe a few of the things you had said too. So, the way I think about customization, and I think it’s an important thing to understand for anybody in the business or getting into it, is I really consider there’s three ways of decorating because we said analog and digital, which are true, that’s two ways to separate. But another way to separate is actually how things are adhered to the garment. And they’re either adhered through a chemical reaction through some sort of bonding or adhesive, or through a mechanical interaction. And so, starting the opposite. Mechanical is embroidery. It’s knots. It’s thread and knots. There’s a mechanical machine moving and tying stuff together. Friction is holding that whole thing together.
And then, we’ve got the chemical reaction stuff. And that’s really on that sublimation side. Sometimes that’s in screen printing when you put certain things in the fabric to remove color out the fabric, so you can add other colors in. And you’re actually physically chemically changing the dye and the garment. And then, we’ve got our adhesion styles, so direct-to-film, white toner printing, vinyl, those are all adhesion. So, we’re actually, we take a color, whatever that is, whether it’s from liquid ink or from vinyl or whatever it might be. And there’s glue in so many words being put on the back of it. And then, that glue goes on a shirt. And generally speaking, heat and pressure activate the glue.
So, if somebody’s listening who doesn’t understand what that means, it’s almost like a glue stick. When you heat it gets all melty and it soaks into whatever you’re wanting to glue. And then, once it cools down again, it gets hard again just like it was before. And that’s how direct-to-film and vinyl, all those basically are working that way. So, I think it’s important to understand there’s chemical reactions and that. Now, saying that, all of these processes, as you mentioned, going into the next, they take up different amounts of space. And you had said that when you went into screen printing, I noted that you said you wanted about 500 square feet to comfortably work. Just as a quick visual, a two-car garage is going to be like 400 or 500 square feet.
Howard Potter:
Yeah, 20-by-20, 20-by-30.
Marc Vila:
Yeah. So, visually, that’s the space we’re talking about to comfortably operate. Was that a four-color screen press or-
Howard Potter:
Yes. Yeah, my first one was… Because at the time, when I started, this is the great thing in the power that people have at their fingertips. I learned how to do web design too, but internet was just becoming a thing. And when you look at those things versus now, yes, there was less information out there back then. You had to really cold call to get information. You actually had to know who to research because the Yellow Pages were still big. So, now you have all this information out in the web, but you have to really watch what information you’re reading because you have a lot of people that put false information or not accurate information out there, which then causes people to make the wrong investments in the wrong type of technologies for their end results. So, it’s very interesting how much more… Like this podcast, for example. I’ve got 21 years of experience. You guys have a ton of experience yourself. And there’s so much that they’re going to gain faster from it nowadays versus what I could back then.
Marc Vila:
You know what? We’re really fortunate to be in this time that we’re in, we’re getting all this information and have the ability to have a couple experts or at least people that claim to be experts who have been doing it for a long time. We’re experts because we’ve been through the fires a few times. But to be able to have folks like us [inaudible 00:12:04] information free to be able to grab out there and get. Because yes, when I started working this industry about 16 years ago, I mean doing initial research was a challenge. Websites weren’t nearly as good. Facebook groups didn’t exist, podcasts didn’t exist. YouTube was there, but not nearly the amount of content.
Howard Potter:
No. Yeah.
Marc Vila:
So, we’re fortunate. We’re also a bit unfortunate to some degree because, as you mentioned, there’s so much information out there and there’s so many groups of people and so many opinions and impersonators and bad-written stuff on the internet, no police to say what’s true or not true because sometimes truth is almost subjective on things. So, a conversation I had with you just before we started the podcast was that a lot of folks will jump online and they’ll say, “I’m starting a business. What machine should I get?” And gosh, that’s an amazing question and gosh, is it a dangerous question. And two examples, are you starting your business out of your house with kids there? Are you starting it out of your house with kids there, but you also have steel building out back that your grandpa built and he used to do some machinery in there and he’s passed away and left it to you and it’s empty, right?
Because that’s two totally different situations. I mean, you could throw in a big giant screen print set up back there if you wanted to, and the you have plenty of room for ventilation, as you mentioned. You got plenty of square feet because that building might be 1,000, 2,000 square feet. Way different than if you live in a condo in Miami. So, I think that it’s a dangerous question to ask. So, understanding the differences between the strengths and weaknesses of this stuff is important. And then, also understanding what’s right for your space and your business is important. So, maybe we can go into a little bit on maybe bullet point or back and forth on the strengths and weaknesses of the different types of technology.
And I have a thought in my head and then I’ll pass it to you. We’ll split analog and digital as we mentioned before, right? So, digital is everything that you are printing individual dots to make whatever image you want. Let’s define digital as that. And then, analog is we are either manually picking or making colors and putting them down individually. So, before you said you had started with a four-color screen press set up, that means you could do four colors at a time. That’s the maximum amount of colors you would do in a piece of art without other complex work happening. So, kind of saying that that’s the difference between those two there.
One of the strengths of the analog stuff is, generally speaking, it’s just really inexpensive to do per piece. That’s the biggest strength of it is a roll of vinyl, if you’re just talking about using vinyl as an example, 30 bucks for a 20-inch by five yard roller, 30 bucks maybe. So, if you’re doing little logos, like little left chest or if that image that’s on your hat, if you were doing that in vinyl, doesn’t cost like nothing, 15 cents. And the same for screen printing. What would that cost in screen printing ink, like a penny?
Howard Potter:
No. Well, because we buy all top of the line inks, so yeah, this size, yeah, it’d be pennies. The big thing though with the analog that I didn’t even take into account until you get into the digital format is it’s cheaper to get into, but it’s more labor-intensive on the backend, which you’re paying for every day. So, when we look at the average size shop, obviously we have close to 30 staff here, which is much different than what the economics or the environment is in the average shop. The average shop is lucky if they have one to five people.
So, how do you maximize the usage of that when you break down… And don’t get me wrong, screen printing, we still do it, we’re just not doing it as much. When you break down, all right, I’m only spending say five or 15 grand, whatever it is to get in the basics of screen printing, we spent upwards of 25,000 to get into it initially. And when you look at those things, you’re like, “All right, 25 grand, I’m looking at probably a $450 a month payment. I could run one order a day and make that payment easily. But how much time am I losing cleaning screens, prepping screens, doing the artwork?”
So, how we had to do things back then because there was only three or four of us at a certain point when we got into screen printing, one day would be dedicated to artwork and printing positives. The next day would be burning screens and cleaning screens. The third day would be actually producing orders. When you break that down, you got the cost of the chemicals, the water, the electric, you got to insure everything too. Let’s not forget that. And the great thing is they’re less mechanical parts, so it’s harder and it takes longer for things to break down, less maintenance, but there’s all that added cost and time and physically touching everything, even if it’s just you.
And especially going into the future with the way things are going with the workforce, you have to maximize time now, not later because if you learn to do that better now you’re going to be more productive later financially too. So, that’s where when we go from analog to digital and you take something like direct-to-film, you’re taking all that extra time of prep work, finish work out of it, and you’re prepping less and producing more consistently with whoever’s there and it’s easier to teach.
Screen printing, there’s a lot of finesse to it. You got to know how to burn a screen just right. Get your lighting, your time down. What emulsions do you like to use? How many coats of emulsion are you going to put on a screen? Are you doing two coats on both sides? Doing a reverse stroke on one side? There’s a lot of different variables and training that goes into it. Whereas if you’re into the digital age of direct-to-film, there’s less training, there’s more producing out the gate, there’s quicker turnaround and your dollar in training someone on direct-to-film versus screen printing.
But where screen printing can shine is when you have customers needing 100 or 500 or 1,000 pieces and you only need to print one or two colors. And if you’re doing a one color on a manual, you’re going to pound them out pretty quickly, and on auto, you’re going even faster. So, when you’re at a one to two color, depending on the quantity, which I usually say 50 to 100 pieces or more, is where you start to see that still hold true to that still that’s still cost-effective time-wise, but it makes you more profitable that way. But if you’re starting out of your home, direct-to-film versus screen printing, even with the smaller units, you’re going to get more bang for your buck and you’re going to be more productive and cost-effective running that direct-to-film than you are screen printing, and it’s going to require less people.
Marc Vila:
Right. Okay, so you had some great stuff in there and I wrote down a couple of things too. So, what I got from you here is one of the great things about the analog processes like screen printing or vinyl is relatively speaking, the upfront cost can be lower. For a vinyl cutting system, no matter what you get, even something small or a single-
Howard Potter:
Yeah, like two, three grand for a vinyl plotter.
Marc Vila:
Yeah, you can get a desktop-sized cutter, commercial grade, 1,200 bucks. And then, you need a heat press. Let’s just say you went with a brand name but not a big one, 800, so like two grand you could do a system. And probably reasonably close to that for a single color small screen print system. So, one of the reasons that looks and is very appealing, because while I only have to spend two grand, that’s a great way to start. Once I grow into it, then I’ll spend more money. The danger in that is what you described is the time.
And this is something I see very common that happens in the startup is somebody… And by the way, this is the true with mowing your own lawn. This is the same thing if you want to paint your house. It’s the same thing if you want to get into baking or bread making or cooking or smoking meats, the tools to get started… You can smoke meat in a generic brand kettle style grill, not even like a Weber, but a cheap one from like 100 dollars. You can smoke meat in that. Now, the challenge is if you have really cheap knives, you’re going to hate cutting up everything ahead of time and trying to get the little fats off and all that stuff’s going to be really hard. You’re keeping the temperature the same in that cheap metal thin case is going to be really, really hard. All these things are harder. It’s a lot more work, right?
Because you didn’t want to buy, say a Traeger or recteq brand type of smoker that was going to cost you $1,500. So, you spend $100 not $1,500. Very appealing. You can do it. The challenge is that if you don’t work through all the extra work and all the challenges to have success, the chances of success are smaller. The chances of you saying, “Smoking meats is way too hard. It’s way too much work. It’s so easy to waste money and ruin stuff. I don’t want to do it again.” And then, you give up.
And I think that is exactly the true of all the other examples. If you get a really cheap mower, you’re going to hate mowing your lawn, it’s not going to look good. If you have a crappy edger, it’s going to get tangled all the time, and it’s going to take you twice as long to do it. So, it’s a little bit of that with some of these analog processes. If you start with a really cheap screen printing set up, yes, you can get started.
Which by the way, I’m pro. I am pro that. I am pro do something, don’t not do it. So, if you have to do it, you need to mentally be prepared that it’s going to be a bunch of work, it’s going to have headaches and you’re going to want to get out of that situation. Alternatively, if you are willing and able, if you got the guts and you’re able to do it, you got to have guts to take… You had to have guts to put five grand into a sublimation printer 20 years ago. That took guts. That’s a decent amount of money. How old were you, like 21?
Howard Potter:
That’s big money back then.
Marc Vila:
How old were you, 21?
Howard Potter:
Yeah, I was 22.
Marc Vila:
So, you’re 21, 22 years old to take five grand and do that. Whether you financed it, borrowed it, had it, that’s nobody’s business. But no matter what, that’s a scary moment.
Howard Potter:
Oh, no, no, no. That’s a good conversation. I think we should talk about this. I want to set the stage for this. Everyone says, “Why is this happening to me? Why can’t I do this?” Let me set the stage. I grew up in group homes. I had nothing handed to me. My wife and I bought a house when I was 22, she was 19. We got married in the backyard. Started the business later that year. Had our first kid on the way. I literally used our credit card because my interest rate was lower. Low back then was like 8%. And I had a great credit score, so I knew-
Marc Vila:
I think that’s low now.
Howard Potter:
Yeah, exactly. And so, I was pouring metal at a mill 13 days on, one day off, working 12-hour shifts. Just working overtime. But I was putting it on my credit card. I knew the interest would be a tax write-off anyways on the business. Bought the stuff. Literally within the first two weeks, got the hang of it, tweaked some stuff, was selling coffee mugs and some apparel and mouse pads, and started generating revenue right away, just off me doing it. But you got to be smart with your money. I’m looking at it, all right. I’m going to pay $5,000, plus every time I got an order, I took the profit, I wailed the credit card with it. So, I didn’t let that five grand sit there for two years or three years as I was making the money, I didn’t take profit out of the business, I paid that debt down instantly.
Marc Vila:
Okay. No, that’s good then. And I like that attitude of I was able to get credit, I did it because… And whatever it might be. This is a little sidebar to that story, but one of the things we talk about is some folks may say… Let’s go an extreme example you have a credit card that’s like 23.9% interest, right? That’s not a great interest rate. And if you were to put five grand on it and then you have your minimum payment and the time to pay it off, it seems like it’s a scary thing. And however, when you start doing the math, this was going to the mugs, how much about were you selling mugs for back then? How much retail?
Howard Potter:
Oh, just a single mug? I was at $20 a mug.
Marc Vila:
Okay. And then, if it was a business that wanted 20 or 40 of them?
Howard Potter:
Yeah, if they were 20 to 40 of them I’d probably be around $10 to $11.
Marc Vila:
Okay. So, you were maybe making somewhere between 8 and 15 bucks a mug, right?
Howard Potter:
Yes.
Marc Vila:
Just finish that thought and then let you go into it real quick. So, let’s go on the bottom of that, eight. So, 5,000 divided by just eight bucks, that’s 600 mugs. That’s on the lowest end by the way. That’s not even your high end. That’s on your lowest end of the numbers. That’s about 600 mugs. That’s not that many orders over that period of time to pay it off. So, what I would say to somebody is, if you got a dream and you got a credit card and you have got a little bit of guts to do it, even if the interest rate is high, if you start hustling and paying the debt off, you own a business and you did it, versus… And this is lots of thought processes. I’m just going to say I like that because you did it when you were hot and hungry and ready for it and you had the guts to do it. You did it.
Versus saying, “Out of my paycheck every week, I’m going to put in $60,” or whatever the number. Because you probably would not have put in more than 50, 60 bucks a paycheck, I imagine at that time if you were to save to buy one. That means that same number, five grand divided by 60 bucks a paycheck, it is going to take you 83 pay cycles. If you’re getting paid every two weeks, that’s years. I’m not going to try to do the math, but that’s years to get started. At that point in time, you’ve lost the gusto, you’ve lost the dream, you’re tired. You may give up between now and then. So, I say do it and then pay it off if you can. And we sidebarred into this conversation, but I think that’s great because both of these things we said are extremely important.
Howard Potter:
I’ll make it even better for you.
Marc Vila:
Sure.
Howard Potter:
So, not only did I start it out with an 8% interest credit card, everyone gets offers, even with people with not so good credit, where they get a credit card offer with no interest payments for 12 months if you take a previous balance and move it to their credit card. So, I think it was like three or four months in I got that, I moved that debt to zero interest and had 12-
Marc Vila:
Yeah, good.
Howard Potter:
So, it’s knowing the rules to the game to play them, but also being financially savvy. I mean, listen, I tell people this all the time. Everybody’s like, “Where’d you get the name A&P Master images?” I said, “Well, the phone book was out and if you had an A and an ampersand, you went to the top of the Yellow Pages for free in bold.” I didn’t have $700 back then to advertise. It was all cold calling and mailing and things of that nature. But when you go back to the printing and the processes and everything that we’re talking about, there’s nothing wrong with being frugal with your money, but also don’t sit on your hands waiting for it to happen either.
Marc Vila:
There’s a balance.
Howard Potter:
Well, it wasn’t a gamble for me because I did the research on the process and how everything chemically bonded with different coatings and fabrics and all that type of stuff. So, I seen that I could do short or large runs, and I could teach anyone to help me, right? Because I had my wife and my father-in-law would help me once in a while, heat pressure to do mugs. So, I knew I had resources around me that I could maximize the output. Again, think about it today, sublimation was the answer back then for me. Fast-forward it 21 years later, everyone’s starting out now, gets to choose direct-to-film over screen printing and over sublimation, and be efficient and profitable faster than I could be way back then.
And the difference, we talk about analog versus the digital, the cost startup cost can switch, but the backend cost switch as well. Like we were saying earlier, meaning screen printing can be cheaper upfront to get started in, but you have way more cost than your labor. Whereas direct-to-film, you could have more upfront cost depending on what machine you go with, but you’re going to have way more profitable backend because you have less time waiting around for something to be produced. You’re instantly up and running fast with quality.
Marc Vila:
With quality. And quality is something that I think is an interesting part in this analog versus digital type of conversation. And tell me if you agree with my thought on this. You can both get quality equipment and quality output on low-cost analog products. You cannot get quality output and quality equipment on low-cost digital products. So, I can buy $1,000 cutter or a $1,800 screen print set up, that’s cheap, and it will produce a quality product. If I buy a thousand or $1,800 direct-to-film printer, I probably am going to be really upset sooner or later at the failure of the finished product.
Howard Potter:
Oh, yeah. Your ROI, your return on investment-
Marc Vila:
And I think that digital requires a bit, digital requires some investment, but you’re going to get the money out of it. And I think that’s a dangerous spot people fall into is they say, “Oh, I can start DTF or screen printing for $1,500.” And I would say, I mean you can’t. I mean you can, you can buy that, but-
Howard Potter:
And you’re going to be miserable either way.
Marc Vila:
Yes, you’re really going to be miserable… And you’re going to be more miserable on the cheap DTF or a cheap direct-to-garment printer or digital printer. So, if you’re going to go digital, which is the way to go in the future, digital is the future in the long run, then take the leap is my thought. If you’re going digital, take the leap. Don’t go cheap into digital because this equipment is very complicated as much as people might not think it is. It’s very complicated on the inside and you want quality parts.
Howard Potter:
Yeah. Well, here’s the other crazy part about it. And I get this. I’ve never been fearful of a payment. And it’s not that I don’t worry about making a payment. The thing is, I’ve done all my calculations. I’ve run my cost analysis. I know what the monthly payment is, I know what my power consumption is going to be. I know what my square inch cost is going to be. I know what my average production rate’s going to be. I didn’t know all those things when I first got going with sublimation, but I had a rough idea when I started running some basic numbers of what I was reading and learning.
So, I don’t care what manufacturer it is of what the equipment or what the process is, you have your tax, you have your sales reps, you have your information that’s out there, whatever number someone gives you, say they tell you you can produce 80 shirts an hour, whatever the process is, we’ll lowball it to 50. Be safe. Always budget on the air of caution. No different than building a home. You always figure 5% to 10% over budget, right? Well, in this case budget lower production numbers and lower output to make sure your costs are still going to make it. So, we went with the DTF-24H4 machine, and we knew that it would take over screen printing from what we tested before we even bought the unit.
And so, we bought a unit that we could have went with the middle one of the DTF-24H2, which is a two-head versus a four-head. Well, what did I think about? Well, two extra sets of heads, it could print faster. That means my team is at the printer less time in the day. We can grow into the machine. These are things that people really need to analyze before they make the plunge. Now, what is your goal? Is this a hobby or are you going to take it serious? Mine started as a hobby because I went to school for design. I was making great money pouring metal, but some things happened in life with my child, which forced me to make it a full-time job, which I’m glad I did to this day. But take the payment. Say, it’s $500 a month. I’ll do the math right here on the calculator. $500 a month. You have a minimum, I say 22 business days a month because you want to have your weekends and stuff, the average person.
Marc Vila:
Yes, definitely.
Howard Potter:
So, 22 business days a month. You’ve got to make $22.72 cents a day. If you can’t do that… Now, let’s figure electric and all this other stuff from your home. So, even if we double that say 100%, you’re talking not even $45 a day to create your own career.
Marc Vila:
To create your own thing. And that’s a great thing about… And you’re talking about investing in a strong hefty piece of equipment that can do a lot. So, I do think that we can probably start to close up the conversation a little bit. I think this has been great, but I think we both agree that the analog processes that are older in technology, meaning they’ve been around longer, like screen printing and vinyl cutting and things like that, they’re great for a lot of their reasons. Like you said, you have a big order that’s a couple of colors and it’s worth the time and the setup, and the cost per piece is very, very inexpensive over time. So, it’s a great part of the business.
And especially, if you’re A, a startup or two, trying to grow your business, the digital stuff, this is computers and machines doing work for you, that’s what they are. So, a direct-to-film printer, since we’re using that example a lot, that is applying all the colors, applying the adhesive it, putting it for a roll-fed machine, putting it into a roll that’s getting ready to go into the next step of production. It’s doing all of those steps. The analog system, a human does all of those things in so many words. A human picks all the colors, physically, goes to a shelf and picks off buckets. If the color’s not there, a human mixes the color visually looks at it-
Howard Potter:
Which can take an average of 15 to 20 minutes to a mix of color, depending on the size, whether you’re a quart, gallon, how finessed the color is, you can easily add 15 to 20 minutes. Then, you also have to swatch it and cure it to make sure it holds the color content that you’re looking for for your [inaudible 00:37:51] match.
Marc Vila:
Right. And depending on the garment you’re using, it could change a little bit. If you’re putting it on a brown shirt, it may look different than on the yellow shirt. So, all of those things are done by a human. And the digital processes, take that and make a machine do it. So, the machine is picking the color. And there may be a little bit of work because you may need to tweak the color or the saturation, for sure that’s part of it. But the cool part about that is if you’re mixing manual colors for screens, I’ve got to mix the color, look at it, check it, maybe run it through the dryer, it’s off. And that’s a process. It’s a circle I have to keep doing.
On the digital side, what I’ll do is if I have a color I’m really trying to hit that I know is a weird orange or red, which in general those colors can be weird. In my software, I will go in and I’ll print 80 saturation, 90 saturation, 100 saturation. I’ll change for these four hues. I’ll bring all of that into one piece, hit print, walk away, go do something, come back, all of them are printed. And then, I can look at my six examples. Number two was the right one, that was the 90% saturation on the magenta. Boom, done, and I’m going. Where the human would’ve gone one, add more, one, add more. So, that step turns from 30 minutes to six minutes, I don’t know.
Howard Potter:
And then, you’re stuck with the waste in screen printing. Once you mix it, that’s only for that customer. You have to hope they come back and want the rest of it.
Marc Vila:
Right. So, now the point in that is now you have to be good at predicting how much you’re going to use for the job… You have to have mixed colors and then run out with eight shirts left or something.
Howard Potter:
Oh, yeah. I got one better for you. Because direct-to-film took off so good and so fast for us last year when we really hammered all year long with it, I probably have over $3,000 worth of custom mixed little quarts, where there’s probably that much ink in them or that much ink, because people just dropped screen printing all together. So, we’re doing five orders, I would say dollar amount wise, we’re doing five-to-one ratio, five in way of direct-to-film and one in the direction of screen printing now. So, all those little mixtures, we’re literally just going to take them to the dump and get rid of them because they’re just taking up space.
Marc Vila:
So, you mix too much or you’re going to purposely mix too much and store it because they’re probably coming back and going to make an extra quart-
Howard Potter:
Well, in our case, everything switched, like a light switch to DTF from screen printing. So, it made those colors obsolete instantly.
Marc Vila:
They make them obsolete. And the same is true with vinyl. We sell vinyl equipment and vinyl here at ColDesi. And the space that we have for a toner printer or for sublimation printer, any of the digitals, DTG, DTF is like a corner. That’s what occupies the showroom. And then, anytime we need to fire it up to do a demo or a video, you turn it on, you fire it up, you run it. The vinyl, when we did that, we had a desktop-sized machine that could cut less than 20 inches. That thing plus all of the colors of vinyl that we needed because if we wanted to do camo, that was a camo color. We had all the basic colors. Then, all those basic colors in glitter. And then, we had all the fancy interesting things, the glow and the dark and the puff…
That whole demo area took up this huge space because all of these rolls… And then, if we were doing, oh, St. Patrick’s Day is coming up. Let’s do a St Patrick’s Day video for YouTube using our vinyl cutter. We want to do it in dark green and glitter green. So, we would order from the warehouse dark green and glitter green. We would cut out those design… The rest of that roll would sit there until we had another green design. So, you end up taking up all this… So, whether it’s the liquid or it’s the vinyl, every color becomes inventory. And then, if you run out of that color, you’re going to have to order it, order a new one or mix a new one if you hopefully have all the ingredients to mix it. Where digital, typically CMYK, that’s your inventory, or maybe there’s light magenta or light cyan too.
Howard Potter:
I mean I’ll break down the mask because I was actually just running it while you were speaking. Right now, we have ColDesi’s largest printer, the 24H4. Supplies, we probably have 10 to 12 rolls of material on hand. We have a minimum of four to six of each ink color and on average, 20, 25 bags of powder. And even if you add my heat process, we have four Hotronix Swing Aways, we’re probably using 225 square feet. And we produced over a half million with that printer last year, and that wasn’t with its max capability.
Marc Vila:
Yeah. And the same thing here. We have pallets of rolls and material, pallets of the powder glue and all that stuff. And that occupies, I’m not going to get into details, but a corner of the warehouse. And the vinyl, I should plug my laptop in. I can’t believe this mid-podcast, I didn’t plug my laptop in, but the vinyl is like five rows of inventory that we have to keep shelf-on-shelf because we have… I’m stepping away from the camera for a…
Howard Potter:
No, you’re good, you’re good.
Marc Vila:
But-
Howard Potter:
Here’s the crazy part. Go ahead, sorry.
Marc Vila:
Yeah, it’s a huge amount of space, huge. And by the way, we have 20 inch rolls and 40 or whatever it is, two sizes. So, if you have two different cutters that you’re doing two different things and you’ve got two sizes. If you have an oversized screen printer and a standard size, you’ve got two sets of everything. The inventory just grows and grows.
Howard Potter:
It chews up space. So, I ran the math. So, by us using no more than 225 square feet roughly, and we did a little over a half million in production last year with that unit, our square foot worth is $2,222 per square foot value.
Marc Vila:
Yeah, wow. What I love about this topic is each little piece is a rabbit hole of information. And so, that’s what I love about it because it’s fun to dive into and there’s a lot to learn and I love to learn new things. I’m addicted to it. So, I love this topic because it’s so deep. The downside of that depth is going back to a statement I made earlier, you can’t go on a Facebook group and say, “How should I start my business?” And expect anybody… I’ll say this, and this may or may not offend some people who’ve done it. I’ve probably done it. Anybody who answers that question without asking you at least five questions is doing you a disservice.
You can’t answer that question without asking, “Do you have a big space to work with? Are you in an apartment? Can you invest some money? Who are you going to sell to? What are you going to make?” I mean, there’s a lot of-
Howard Potter:
“Is it a hobby?”
Marc Vila:
“Is it a hobby? Is it a side hustle that you want to stay a side hustle?” For example, we have a lot of customers who are educators or former educators, retired educators. And a lot of them want a side hustle, and they don’t want to quit being a fourth grade teacher because they love it. It’s a passion for them, they love it. However, they do have times of the year where they maybe have the summer offspring break, things of that nature, where they can have a little side hustle that they can use to make some money for vacations, Christmas presents, and that’s what they want. So, “I want love my full-time job. I’m not trying to leave it. I want a side hustle.” So, the side hustle answer, it’s important. This is an important part of the process, but I’m always a fan of the digital processes and I could tell you are too.
Howard Potter:
Yes.
Marc Vila:
And I will typically lean towards folks going that way. And then, I just think that the final thoughts on it, for me, are if you’re going to go with a digital process, you need to… And these are things we’ve said, or I’ve said, you’ve said, but you have to invest in something quality. If you cheap digital, you’re going to be unhappy, that’s the bottom line. And probably if it’s sold on Amazon, you’re going to be unhappy.
Howard Potter:
Oh, yeah.
Marc Vila:
Because you want something that’s actually going to be there to make you money. And then, when you’re ready to take the leap, if you’ve got the guts to take the leap, do it, just like you did. You took the credit card and you put five grand on it when you were working 12-hour shifts. That takes guts because that five grand could have been for, I don’t know, 1,000 other things in your life. So, if you’ve got the guts to do it and you want to do it, you take the leap, pay some interest if you have to, work the system if you can, like you said. But the digital process is the way to go and it’s very well worth it if you invest in the right digital process for you. So, ask the questions. If you want to ask opinions of people, if they don’t ask you questions back, I would be skeptical of the answer that’s too simple.
And then of course, a little ColDesi plug. The folks over here at ColDesi spend so much time learning about all the different technologies, all the different capabilities, all the different reasons why you would or would not buy something. They get paid to sell a vinyl cutter. They get paid to sell a DTF. So, to them, they want you to be happy and get the right thing because that’s the culture here. So, I would say you should talk to some experts. And I think it’s a good idea if you’re talking to experts, you talk to experts that sell different things because if you call the guy who just sells screen printing equipment, he is going to sell you screen printing equipment. If you call the person who just sells-
Howard Potter:
You go to a car dealership, right?
Marc Vila:
Yeah. They’re going to sell you a Jeep if it’s a Jeep dealer.
Howard Potter:
If this all I have in the lot, I’m trying to get you to buy whatever’s on this lot. And that’s a good point too, because not to drag this out, but that’s another reason why we have so many different processes in our company because it also starts with where the industry was. And now, all of our newer equipment shows where it’s going and why we’ve made those investments. So, you don’t have to make the same mistakes I did.
Marc Vila:
Well, and I think that what you did in a lot of different ways is a good trajectory, and you’re just starting with what you had and what was available at the time. So, I would gather 20 years ago if a direct-to-film printer for printing t-shirts was available, that probably would’ve least been high on the deck-
Howard Potter:
It would have been high.
Marc Vila:
It would’ve been on deck for you at minimum. It would’ve been part of the decision making process. But the mistakes you didn’t make were you didn’t, right out of the gate, come out with the cheapest thing you can buy when you started with your sublimation printer. When you were able to pay off debts, you did it. When you were able to invest in a different technology, like embroidery was your second one, you did that because that rounds out your plate a little bit for your customers and who you could sell to.
So, you did those right things. So, you made mistakes, but you made a lot of great decisions, which is why you stuck around. So, I think that’s wonderful. And I think that anybody listening here who maybe you don’t know anything about the industry yet and you’re learning, that’s why you’re listening to this episode. And you may listen and this is reality. Someone’s going to listen and say, “Yeah, but I made a mistake. I messed up my credit when I was 19 years old. I don’t have five grand.” And I would just say, “You take the steps then. You take the steps to fix that. Maybe it’s not tomorrow or maybe someone else helps you out to it.”
Howard Potter:
You get the lease option. You can lease equipment too, depending on the value.
Marc Vila:
Yeah, you can lease it. If you can’t get approved for leasing, then maybe there’s someone that will work with you. But the point of it all is, and just kind of my final thought on it… I think my second final thought because I already had one final thought. But my second final thought is kind of just like you got to take your leap, make your right decision, educate yourself. And when we’re talking about analog versus digital stuff, the analog processes, although they’ve stood tests of time and they’re low-cost, ultimately, it’s more work always. It’s always more work for you. So, I would say, what can you afford more? If this is a side hustle or you’re just getting started, can you afford 10 more hours of work a week? Or can you afford to figure out how to sell 15 more shirts a month to make the difference? Because that literally can be the difference in a payment between a cheap thing and an expensive thing. 150 versus 300 is like 16 shirts.
Howard Potter:
Exactly. The problem is we get hung up on this big dollar amount, right?
Marc Vila:
Yes.
Howard Potter:
Whether it’s five grand, 50 grand, whatever it is, I’m living proof to tell you, I started with five grand worth of equipment. I now have over $800,000 worth of equipment, but 90% of it’s all paid off because I kept that same format of investing in a technology, mastering it, promoting it, selling it. When the next thing came along, I jumped on it before the next person. Because here’s the other thing that’s very important that people need to understand, the longer you wait to get into a process, that means everybody else is capitalizing on the market faster. It doesn’t mean you can’t still enter into it, but they’re capitalizing on it faster. So, the quicker you jump in, the quicker you’re going to start making money.
Marc Vila:
Yeah. The early adopters will have more headaches and frustrations because they are the ones that have to help learn and help build it.
Howard Potter:
Pave the way.
Marc Vila:
But you earn that in the rewards of making more money when it’s worth more. The late adopters have almost no headaches because everything’s completely matured, but they’re fighting the slimmest margin time of a technology. So, if you are saying, “I’m probably going to wait until maybe three years for DTF to mature more before I invest,” by then, the gold rush is gone and now it’s common. So, I think when you jumped in right in a sweet spot, and I think we’re still in that space. Currently, at the taping of this in March of 2024, we’re still in that sweet spot space where there’s tons of big shops that don’t have it. And when we interview those shops, a lot of them that are doing screen printing, they’re losing business to digital, to DTF specifically.
But analog shops are losing business to digital because of all the benefits of digital, which we didn’t go into these yet, but as many colors as you want, as small of quantities as you want-
Howard Potter:
I mean photographs, half-tones, distressed.
Marc Vila:
Photographs, half-tones. And someone could say, “I could do all that in screen printing,” but that’s hard. It’s hard.
Howard Potter:
You can and-
Marc Vila:
To turn a picture of a face into screens, it requires a lot of skill. It’s not something you’d do tomorrow.
Howard Potter:
Well, let’s break it out even simpler than that. All right. Say, I’m printing for a high school or a business and they need youth and adult, but now youth goes down to extra small, maybe even toddler, and then adult goes up to 5X. Well, wait a minute. This 10 by 10 print won’t work on the smaller youth sizes and it’ll look too small on the larger sizes. With the digital, you can adjust that sizing by minor tweaks when you’re setting up the file in the print software to adjust it for pennies on the dollar more for your customer to accommodate them. In screen printing, you’d have to print all these positives, set up all these other screens, and you’d have triple the setup time.
Marc Vila:
Yeah, it is interesting and it is fascinating, and we could dive deeper and deeper, but I think we started off with maybe this was going to be a shorter podcast just covering a topic, but it ended up, this is what happens in this exact conversation, is it unfolds into a lot. So, I think we’ve got a bunch of great information here. I hope that everybody listening, you’re headed in the right direction. So, what the homework I would leave people with, I describe in a lot of episodes leaving people with homework are, if you are new to the business now and you’re just starting to learn, I would continue understanding more and more. And do your research. Talk to people on the phone. Don’t rely on Facebook comments and TikTok short videos to make your decision. Talk to experts, research, ask for samples. And if something seems a little too good or too interesting or too cheap, be skeptical. So, that’s one.
And if you’re only doing analog stuff now and you’re like, “Oh, I’m still researching this DTF,” I mean, I’m going to encourage you to move, make the move, get going, take the step because we’re still in a really hot time. So, that wraps everything up for me here. Howard, thank you so much again for jumping on. I know that this little bit of time or this hour that we’ve been on the phone right here is going to have a lasting impact for a lot of people out there. And I hope you know that every time we do one of these podcasts, there’s a bunch of people out there who we change their life in one way or another. It sounds so simple and corny, but it’s a fact because every time we do an episode, I will get a phone call or an email or a Facebook comment that said, “Because of this, I did it. Because of this, I changed this.” So, I want you to just got to go to bed thinking about that.
Howard Potter:
I mean, the thing is, at the end of the day, there’s 320 million people in the United States. There’s less than 400,000 that know anything about any process of customizing. So, no matter if you’re just getting into the industry or adjusting to the industry, there’s still plenty of wealth to be had to provide for your family or to build a large company if you wanted to, it’s still there. It’s still ready to be-
Marc Vila:
Yep, and we talked about that the last time we met, so that’s great. Well, thanks everybody for listening to this episode of the Custom Apparel Startups Podcast. Hopefully, you got a lot of great information out of it. I’d like to wrap up just saying that the podcast is essentially produced and sponsored by ColDesi. So, go to customapparelstartups.com if you want to check out video of this, show notes that we put in there, we’ll put in links and other information. And check out coldesi.com as well. You can look at the direct-to-film printers mentioned in here, direct-to-garment printers, cutters, white toner printing transfer. So, there’s a lot of different things that we offer there. And all those technologies are great for certain people in certain situations doing the right thing.
Right now, both Howard and I clearly are fans of direct-to-film printing, it’s a super cool technology. But the other stuff that’s all out there is great for other applications too. So, do the research, jump on there, learn watch videos, and enjoy. Thanks again, Howard. We’ll see you next time.
Howard Potter:
Thank you.